[DeTomaso] Rods lifters, best fit.
Thomas Tornblom
Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE
Sun Sep 3 04:36:37 EDT 2006
Don Thomas wrote:
> I was just curious if you have performed a dyno test with this cam and what the results were. I got the conservative version of the roller cam, the Crane 529551.
Sorry, not yet.
The only shop locally with a dyno was fully booked during the summer.
I'll check with them again soon.
I might check with a shop in Stockholm that has a Rototest dyno. This is
a real braking dyno, not just a roller.
>
> Thanks,
> -dt
Cheers,
Thomas
>
> Thomas Tornblom wrote:
>
>> I am using the Crane 529801 hydraulic roller, with the $$$ Crane
>> lifters, although I bought them as Ford lifters. Summit had the Ford
>> branded lifters in stock, but not the Cranes. Turned out the Ford
>> lifters were $10 less also ;-)
>>
>> I'm using the Crane steel distributor gear, and a Rollmaster timing
>> chain setup, which has a torrington thrust bearing.
>>
>> I'm using the bolt down Ford roller rockers, shimmed to around 1/4 turn,
>> and I ordered 7.850" single piece pushrods.
>>
>> I have titanium valves, and although I have not reved it very high, it
>> really likes to pull beyond when it ran out of steam with the old flat
>> tappet cam.
>>
>> I have put around 6000 km on it sofar.
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>> Donny Williams wrote:
>>> Dan- Wow! You have done your homework! And really written an long
>>> outstanding reference! That said I am running thre Crane dog bone
>>> solids in mine......So far not a hiccup at 5K miles!
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel C Jones"
>>> <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
>>> To: <adin at frontier.net>
>>> Cc: <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 12:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Rods lifters, best fit.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Now I am "feeling the need" to go to a hydraulic roller - what are
>>>>> some of the "things I need to know to ask?"
>>>> There are two approaches to install a hydraulic roller cam in a 351C. The
>>>> first replicates what Ford did with the 5.0L V8. On the 5.0L, Ford
>>>> used a
>>>> stamped steel hold down bracket (a.k.a. the "spider"), individual
>>>> hydraulic
>>>> roller lifters and bars (a.k.a "dog bones") that pair the lifters
>>>> together
>>>> to keep the roller oriented on the camshaft. Ford also revised the block
>>>> casting with bosses for the spider and taller lifter bores. The cam
>>>> material
>>>> was changed from iron to steel and a matching steel gear installed on the
>>>> distributor. The spider bolts to the lifter valley to retain each
>>>> pair of
>>>> lifters. The lifter bore height was increased to match the taller roller
>>>> lifters which also required shorter pushrods. Clevelands were not
>>>> originally
>>>> equipped with roller lifters so their lifter bores are relatively
>>>> short and
>>>> the block was not cast with bosses for the spider. To use this
>>>> approach in
>>>> a 351C, you'll need to drill and tap a couple of holes in the block
>>>> for the
>>>> spider and a reduced base circle cam that lowers the taller roller
>>>> lifters
>>>> in their bores are required. Comp Cams hydraulic roller retrofit kits
>>>> use
>>>> this approach. Since the lifter is taller and the base circle of the cam
>>>> is changed, figure on custom length (shorter) pushrods. It varies from
>>>> block-to-block but there may be an interference problem. The cast-in X's
>>>> behind the lifters in the corners of the valley in 351C blocks can
>>>> interfere
>>>> with the spider and may have to be ground down. It may not end there. A
>>>> friend ordered a custom hydraulic roller cam from Comp and tried to
>>>> install
>>>> it in his iron 351C block. The Ford 5.0L type lifters (which measure the
>>>> same as the Comp lifters) hit the dog bones in a couple of the lifter
>>>> bores.
>>>> Apparently the lifter bore height varies enough in production 351C
>>>> blocks to
>>>> make some of them too short for the Ford or Comp lifters. Though Comp
>>>> assured
>>>> him it would all fit, they refused to refund him the cost of the
>>>> custom cam.
>>>> His fix was to try the second method.
>>>>
>>>> The second approach uses paired (aftermarket) roller lifters tied
>>>> together
>>>> by link bars attached directly to the lifter bodies. This disepenses
>>>> with
>>>> the spider and dog bones arrangement and any potential interference
>>>> issues.
>>>> Crane was the first to make these lifters for a 351C but Comp has
>>>> recently
>>>> introduced a version as well. The Crane aftermarket link bar lifters
>>>> have
>>>> the oil hole lower on the body so don't need a taller lifter bore or a
>>>> reduced base circle cam. Cranes lifters are p/n 36532-16. The same
>>>> lifters
>>>> are also sold by Ford Motorsport under part number M-6500-S58 ("Early
>>>> Block
>>>> Hydraulic Roller Lifter Set"). Edelbrock also sells a linked lifters for
>>>> SBF applications under part number 97453. The Crane lifters are widely
>>>> recognized as the best currently on the market. They are stronger, have
>>>> better tolerances and generally provide better RPM than the OEM Ford
>>>> lifters.
>>>> A friend uses the Ford Motorsport version of the Crane lifters and has
>>>> tested
>>>> them to 9000 RPM. The downside is the lifters are over $400 a set but
>>>> they
>>>> are re-usable (unlike flat tappet lifters).
>>>>
>>>> Rhoads also makes their variable duration lifters in hydraulic roller
>>>> form. The small block Ford part numbers are RL-1008 (standard Rhoads)
>>>> and RL-1008X for the new Vmax (higher RPM, require adjustable valve
>>>> train)
>>>> versions. Note that though Rhoads offers link bar styles for Chevy
>>>> applications, the Ford offerings are not link bar.
>>>>
>>>> On 5.0L the heads were revised to allow removal of the lifters without
>>>> removing the cylinder heads. This isn't a problem on a 351C (or 351W)
>>>> due to the taller deck height. There's also a lift limitation with the
>>>> stock Ford type lifters.
>>>>
>>>> If you check the Comp catalog you'll see they list the same spring for
>>>> every one of their 351C hydraulic roller catalog grinds from the 260HR
>>>> (1200 to 4500 RPM, max lift of 0.510") to the 304HR (3000 to 6500 RPM,
>>>> 0.612" lift). You definitely want the upgrade spring (or more) for
>>>> something like the 304HR. Crane's catalog also lists a single spring for
>>>> their range of 351C hydraulic rollers but their standard spring package
>>>> (dual with damper) is a fair bit it stiffer.
>>>>
>>>> Another consideration to be aware of when ordering a hydraulic roller
>>>> cam is the cam core and lobe compatibility. Hydraulic roller cam lobes
>>>> are shaped differently from race type solid roller profiles and require
>>>> their own cam cores. Attempting to grind a hydraulic roller lobe on a
>>>> steel core designed originally for a solid race roller cam will break
>>>> through the surface treatment. I ran into this problem with Comp Cams.
>>>> I worked with David Vizard to spec a custom cam for my engine. That cam
>>>> used Comp 3636 and 3637 hydraulic roller lobes. Comp's catalog retrofit
>>>> hydraulic roller grinds use an austempered ductile iron cam core but
>>>> Vizard thought I should use a stronger 8620 steel cam core with those
>>>> lobes so that's what was ordered. I was later contacted by Comp and
>>>> informed they couldn't put those lobes on an 8620 steel core. Comp's -8
>>>> austempered ductile iron cores are used for hydraulic roller and milder
>>>> street solid roller grinds. Their -9 cores are 8620 steel solid roller
>>>> cam cores. Comp said grinding the desired shape on the -9 cores would
>>>> penetrate the surface treatment. Comp also uses a reduced base circle
>>>> cam which I wasn't particularly fond of. In the end, I cancelled the
>>>> Comp order and went with a similar grind from Crane. Crane uses standard
>>>> base circle 8620 steel cam cores for their 351C hydraulic roller cams.
>>>> Be aware that different lifters have different diameter rollers and
>>>> there may be compatibility issues with very small base circles. Crane
>>>> says their roller lifters are fine on 1.090" diameter reduced base circle
>>>> cams.
>>>>
>>>> Since roller camshafts are not tapered, a retaining plate or camshaft
>>>> button must be installed to keep the cam from walking. FRPP has either
>>>> iron or steel retaining plates for 351C's and recommends the iron plate
>>>> for timing sets with iron gears and the steel for timing sets with
>>>> steel gears. Check the stack height for proper timing chain alignment
>>>> once everything is installed.
>>>>
>>>> In general, hydraulic roller lifters don't rev as high as flat tappets
>>>> for a given spring pressure. The Cleveland's heavy valves and 1.73:1
>>>> rocker ratio only makes things worse. There are several things that can
>>>> be done to extend the RPM range:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Better lifters (Crane link bars)
>>>> 2. Better springs and lighter retainers (beehives with nickel size
>>>> titanium retainers)
>>>> 3. Lighter valves (titanium or Ferrear hollow stem steel)
>>>> 4. Tailored lobes (for RPM)
>>>>
>>>> As an example of what can be done, a friend of mine turns in excess of
>>>> 9000 RPM with a hydraulic roller cam using all the tricks (Crane lifters,
>>>> solid roller springs, titanium valves and retainers, Anderson Ford
>>>> Motorsport "Hi Rev" lobe profile). Granted, it's a drag race only bullet
>>>> but it shows what is possible.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, there's the distributor gear and cam core material compatibility
>>>> issue. I recently posted about this but here's a review. There are
>>>> several distributor gears to choose from:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Cast Iron Distributor Gears
>>>> These are the standard distributor gears used on hydraulic and solid flat
>>>> tappet camshafts which use iron cores. Not compatible with most
>>>> hydraulic
>>>> or solid roller cam steel cores. However, Comp Cams claims there -8 part
>>>> number hydraulic rollers (which use a cast iron core) are compatible with
>>>> standard cast iron cam gears. Note that some cast iron gears from auto
>>>> parts stores are substantially softer than OEM iron gears. Also note
>>>> that
>>>> some cam companies use a harder core for certain race solid flat tappet
>>>> grinds which may require a bronze (or other material) gear.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Ford Motorsport Steel Gear
>>>> P/N M-12390-J (1.421" OD, 0.531" ID, for 351C) in the FRPP catalog.
>>>> From page 105 of the 2005 FRPP catalog: "Steel gears are compatible with
>>>> billet steel camshafts (hydraulic roller type)". Comp Cams also claims
>>>> the Ford gears are compatible with their -8 austempered ductile iron
>>>> hydraulic roller cam cores (Comp also uses the -8 cores for some solid
>>>> street roller cams). According to MSD, the Ford mild steel distributor
>>>> gears (as fitted to engines with factory hydraulic-roller-cams) are
>>>> softer
>>>> than the common ductile iron gears, but harder than bronze. MSD also
>>>> claims that Chevy uses a harder cam core for it's factory hydraulic
>>>> rollers
>>>> and uses cast iron gears but that its gears don't last as long as the
>>>> Ford
>>>> gears. Some 5.0L Ford racers have used the Ford gear on steel cam cores
>>>> without incident and some builders run the Ford steel gear on cast iron
>>>> flat tappet cams as well.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Crane Steel Gear
>>>> Crane has a coated steel gear which they claim is compatible with
>>>> induction
>>>> hardened or carburized steel roller cores, as well as iron flat tappet
>>>> cores.
>>>> Their website refers to it them as "specially coated and processed steel
>>>> distributor gears using either cast flat faced lifter or steel roller
>>>> camshafts". They list two part numbers for 351C distributors:
>>>>
>>>> 52970-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.500" shaft diameter
>>>> 52971-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.531" shaft diameter
>>>>
>>>> Crane does not recommend the use of their gears on camshafts that have
>>>> been
>>>> previously run with other types or materials of gears. Comp did not
>>>> recommend
>>>> this gear on their -8 cores. Mike Trusty ran a Crane gear and had it
>>>> fail in
>>>> short order. Asa Jay currently runs Crane's gear on a Crane steel
>>>> roller cam.
>>>> I'm told but have not verified that Crane's earliest steel gears were
>>>> made
>>>> like the Ford gears but their new gears are different. It may be the
>>>> case
>>>> that Mike's gear was the early version and Asa Jay's the late? In any
>>>> case,
>>>> I've spoken with several people who are running the current Crane
>>>> gears with
>>>> no problems. Asa Jay was kind enough to remove his distributor and
>>>> check the
>>>> gear and reported it had a normal contact pattern and wear.
>>>>
>>>> 4. Mallory Distributor Gear
>>>> Mallory makes a distributor gear for their distributors that are made
>>>> specifically for "austempered ductile iron billets" and "proferal billet"
>>>> cams. It is supposed to be compatible with the Comp Cams austempered
>>>> iron
>>>> cam cores. As I understand it, the gear is heat-treated for
>>>> compatibility.
>>>>
>>>> 5. Bronze-Aluminum Distributor Gears
>>>> Generally softer than iron. Compatible with most cam cores but wears
>>>> rapidly. A bronze distributor gear is essentially sacrificial, wearing
>>>> the distributor gear instead of the roller cam gear. Usually specified
>>>> for solid roller cams. Note that hardness can vary from manufacturer to
>>>> manufacturer. If running one of these gears, you may want to run an
>>>> oil filter without a bypass so the filter catches the wear particles.
>>>> On a 351C, consider using Purolator oil filter number L30119. It's a
>>>> full size replacement for the FL-1A Ford/PH8A Fram filter. It has no
>>>> bypass spring in the middle but it does have the rubber flapper for
>>>> anti-drainback. The original application is for a 1978 Nissan 510, 2.0L
>>>> 4 cyl engine (L20B) which had the bypass valve in the engine block.
>>>> This filter cross-references to a Fram PH2850, a Motorcraft FL-181,
>>>> and a Wix 51452. However, those filters have not been verified and may
>>>> have a bypass. It appears after 1978, Nissan went to a half height
>>>> filter. Purolator part number L22167 fits that application and does not
>>>> have the bypass spring but does have the rubber flapper for
>>>> anti-drainback.
>>>> Race engines may want to run dual filters.
>>>>
>>>> 6. Comp Cams Carbon Ultra-Poly Composite Distributor Gear
>>>> Also meant as a replacement for rapid wearing bronze gears, Comp has a
>>>> composite material gear. These are currently only available for Windsor
>>>> Fords and small and big block Chevys.
>>>>
>>>>> Any hope of a bazillion hp, tractor like torque, long lived valve
>>>>> trains
>>>>> and a date w/ a keno girl that can suck the chome off a trailer hitch?
>>>> What a guy does with his weekends is his own concern :-)
>>>>
>>>> Dan Jones
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>> --
>> Real life: Thomas Törnblom Email: Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE
>> Snail mail: Banvallsvägen 14 Phone: +46 18 290 290
>> S - 754 40 Uppsala, Sweden Cellular: +46 70 261 1372
>> Fax: +46 18 290 291
>>
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--
Real life: Thomas Törnblom Email: Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE
Snail mail: Banvallsvägen 14 Phone: +46 18 290 290
S - 754 40 Uppsala, Sweden Cellular: +46 70 261 1372
Fax: +46 18 290 291
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