[DeTomaso] Rods lifters, best fit.
Don Thomas
dt at ieee.org
Sun Sep 3 01:47:01 EDT 2006
I was just curious if you have performed a dyno test with this cam and what the results were. I got the conservative version of the roller cam, the Crane 529551.
Thanks,
-dt
Thomas Tornblom wrote:
> I am using the Crane 529801 hydraulic roller, with the $$$ Crane
> lifters, although I bought them as Ford lifters. Summit had the Ford
> branded lifters in stock, but not the Cranes. Turned out the Ford
> lifters were $10 less also ;-)
>
> I'm using the Crane steel distributor gear, and a Rollmaster timing
> chain setup, which has a torrington thrust bearing.
>
> I'm using the bolt down Ford roller rockers, shimmed to around 1/4 turn,
> and I ordered 7.850" single piece pushrods.
>
> I have titanium valves, and although I have not reved it very high, it
> really likes to pull beyond when it ran out of steam with the old flat
> tappet cam.
>
> I have put around 6000 km on it sofar.
>
> Thomas
>
> Donny Williams wrote:
> > Dan- Wow! You have done your homework! And really written an long
> > outstanding reference! That said I am running thre Crane dog bone
> > solids in mine......So far not a hiccup at 5K miles!
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel C Jones"
> > <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
> > To: <adin at frontier.net>
> > Cc: <detomaso at realbig.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 12:40 PM
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Rods lifters, best fit.
> >
> >
> >>> Now I am "feeling the need" to go to a hydraulic roller - what are
> >>> some of the "things I need to know to ask?"
> >>
> >> There are two approaches to install a hydraulic roller cam in a 351C. The
> >> first replicates what Ford did with the 5.0L V8. On the 5.0L, Ford
> >> used a
> >> stamped steel hold down bracket (a.k.a. the "spider"), individual
> >> hydraulic
> >> roller lifters and bars (a.k.a "dog bones") that pair the lifters
> >> together
> >> to keep the roller oriented on the camshaft. Ford also revised the block
> >> casting with bosses for the spider and taller lifter bores. The cam
> >> material
> >> was changed from iron to steel and a matching steel gear installed on the
> >> distributor. The spider bolts to the lifter valley to retain each
> >> pair of
> >> lifters. The lifter bore height was increased to match the taller roller
> >> lifters which also required shorter pushrods. Clevelands were not
> >> originally
> >> equipped with roller lifters so their lifter bores are relatively
> >> short and
> >> the block was not cast with bosses for the spider. To use this
> >> approach in
> >> a 351C, you'll need to drill and tap a couple of holes in the block
> >> for the
> >> spider and a reduced base circle cam that lowers the taller roller
> >> lifters
> >> in their bores are required. Comp Cams hydraulic roller retrofit kits
> >> use
> >> this approach. Since the lifter is taller and the base circle of the cam
> >> is changed, figure on custom length (shorter) pushrods. It varies from
> >> block-to-block but there may be an interference problem. The cast-in X's
> >> behind the lifters in the corners of the valley in 351C blocks can
> >> interfere
> >> with the spider and may have to be ground down. It may not end there. A
> >> friend ordered a custom hydraulic roller cam from Comp and tried to
> >> install
> >> it in his iron 351C block. The Ford 5.0L type lifters (which measure the
> >> same as the Comp lifters) hit the dog bones in a couple of the lifter
> >> bores.
> >> Apparently the lifter bore height varies enough in production 351C
> >> blocks to
> >> make some of them too short for the Ford or Comp lifters. Though Comp
> >> assured
> >> him it would all fit, they refused to refund him the cost of the
> >> custom cam.
> >> His fix was to try the second method.
> >>
> >> The second approach uses paired (aftermarket) roller lifters tied
> >> together
> >> by link bars attached directly to the lifter bodies. This disepenses
> >> with
> >> the spider and dog bones arrangement and any potential interference
> >> issues.
> >> Crane was the first to make these lifters for a 351C but Comp has
> >> recently
> >> introduced a version as well. The Crane aftermarket link bar lifters
> >> have
> >> the oil hole lower on the body so don't need a taller lifter bore or a
> >> reduced base circle cam. Cranes lifters are p/n 36532-16. The same
> >> lifters
> >> are also sold by Ford Motorsport under part number M-6500-S58 ("Early
> >> Block
> >> Hydraulic Roller Lifter Set"). Edelbrock also sells a linked lifters for
> >> SBF applications under part number 97453. The Crane lifters are widely
> >> recognized as the best currently on the market. They are stronger, have
> >> better tolerances and generally provide better RPM than the OEM Ford
> >> lifters.
> >> A friend uses the Ford Motorsport version of the Crane lifters and has
> >> tested
> >> them to 9000 RPM. The downside is the lifters are over $400 a set but
> >> they
> >> are re-usable (unlike flat tappet lifters).
> >>
> >> Rhoads also makes their variable duration lifters in hydraulic roller
> >> form. The small block Ford part numbers are RL-1008 (standard Rhoads)
> >> and RL-1008X for the new Vmax (higher RPM, require adjustable valve
> >> train)
> >> versions. Note that though Rhoads offers link bar styles for Chevy
> >> applications, the Ford offerings are not link bar.
> >>
> >> On 5.0L the heads were revised to allow removal of the lifters without
> >> removing the cylinder heads. This isn't a problem on a 351C (or 351W)
> >> due to the taller deck height. There's also a lift limitation with the
> >> stock Ford type lifters.
> >>
> >> If you check the Comp catalog you'll see they list the same spring for
> >> every one of their 351C hydraulic roller catalog grinds from the 260HR
> >> (1200 to 4500 RPM, max lift of 0.510") to the 304HR (3000 to 6500 RPM,
> >> 0.612" lift). You definitely want the upgrade spring (or more) for
> >> something like the 304HR. Crane's catalog also lists a single spring for
> >> their range of 351C hydraulic rollers but their standard spring package
> >> (dual with damper) is a fair bit it stiffer.
> >>
> >> Another consideration to be aware of when ordering a hydraulic roller
> >> cam is the cam core and lobe compatibility. Hydraulic roller cam lobes
> >> are shaped differently from race type solid roller profiles and require
> >> their own cam cores. Attempting to grind a hydraulic roller lobe on a
> >> steel core designed originally for a solid race roller cam will break
> >> through the surface treatment. I ran into this problem with Comp Cams.
> >> I worked with David Vizard to spec a custom cam for my engine. That cam
> >> used Comp 3636 and 3637 hydraulic roller lobes. Comp's catalog retrofit
> >> hydraulic roller grinds use an austempered ductile iron cam core but
> >> Vizard thought I should use a stronger 8620 steel cam core with those
> >> lobes so that's what was ordered. I was later contacted by Comp and
> >> informed they couldn't put those lobes on an 8620 steel core. Comp's -8
> >> austempered ductile iron cores are used for hydraulic roller and milder
> >> street solid roller grinds. Their -9 cores are 8620 steel solid roller
> >> cam cores. Comp said grinding the desired shape on the -9 cores would
> >> penetrate the surface treatment. Comp also uses a reduced base circle
> >> cam which I wasn't particularly fond of. In the end, I cancelled the
> >> Comp order and went with a similar grind from Crane. Crane uses standard
> >> base circle 8620 steel cam cores for their 351C hydraulic roller cams.
> >> Be aware that different lifters have different diameter rollers and
> >> there may be compatibility issues with very small base circles. Crane
> >> says their roller lifters are fine on 1.090" diameter reduced base circle
> >> cams.
> >>
> >> Since roller camshafts are not tapered, a retaining plate or camshaft
> >> button must be installed to keep the cam from walking. FRPP has either
> >> iron or steel retaining plates for 351C's and recommends the iron plate
> >> for timing sets with iron gears and the steel for timing sets with
> >> steel gears. Check the stack height for proper timing chain alignment
> >> once everything is installed.
> >>
> >> In general, hydraulic roller lifters don't rev as high as flat tappets
> >> for a given spring pressure. The Cleveland's heavy valves and 1.73:1
> >> rocker ratio only makes things worse. There are several things that can
> >> be done to extend the RPM range:
> >>
> >> 1. Better lifters (Crane link bars)
> >> 2. Better springs and lighter retainers (beehives with nickel size
> >> titanium retainers)
> >> 3. Lighter valves (titanium or Ferrear hollow stem steel)
> >> 4. Tailored lobes (for RPM)
> >>
> >> As an example of what can be done, a friend of mine turns in excess of
> >> 9000 RPM with a hydraulic roller cam using all the tricks (Crane lifters,
> >> solid roller springs, titanium valves and retainers, Anderson Ford
> >> Motorsport "Hi Rev" lobe profile). Granted, it's a drag race only bullet
> >> but it shows what is possible.
> >>
> >> Finally, there's the distributor gear and cam core material compatibility
> >> issue. I recently posted about this but here's a review. There are
> >> several distributor gears to choose from:
> >>
> >> 1. Cast Iron Distributor Gears
> >> These are the standard distributor gears used on hydraulic and solid flat
> >> tappet camshafts which use iron cores. Not compatible with most
> >> hydraulic
> >> or solid roller cam steel cores. However, Comp Cams claims there -8 part
> >> number hydraulic rollers (which use a cast iron core) are compatible with
> >> standard cast iron cam gears. Note that some cast iron gears from auto
> >> parts stores are substantially softer than OEM iron gears. Also note
> >> that
> >> some cam companies use a harder core for certain race solid flat tappet
> >> grinds which may require a bronze (or other material) gear.
> >>
> >> 2. Ford Motorsport Steel Gear
> >> P/N M-12390-J (1.421" OD, 0.531" ID, for 351C) in the FRPP catalog.
> >> From page 105 of the 2005 FRPP catalog: "Steel gears are compatible with
> >> billet steel camshafts (hydraulic roller type)". Comp Cams also claims
> >> the Ford gears are compatible with their -8 austempered ductile iron
> >> hydraulic roller cam cores (Comp also uses the -8 cores for some solid
> >> street roller cams). According to MSD, the Ford mild steel distributor
> >> gears (as fitted to engines with factory hydraulic-roller-cams) are
> >> softer
> >> than the common ductile iron gears, but harder than bronze. MSD also
> >> claims that Chevy uses a harder cam core for it's factory hydraulic
> >> rollers
> >> and uses cast iron gears but that its gears don't last as long as the
> >> Ford
> >> gears. Some 5.0L Ford racers have used the Ford gear on steel cam cores
> >> without incident and some builders run the Ford steel gear on cast iron
> >> flat tappet cams as well.
> >>
> >> 3. Crane Steel Gear
> >> Crane has a coated steel gear which they claim is compatible with
> >> induction
> >> hardened or carburized steel roller cores, as well as iron flat tappet
> >> cores.
> >> Their website refers to it them as "specially coated and processed steel
> >> distributor gears using either cast flat faced lifter or steel roller
> >> camshafts". They list two part numbers for 351C distributors:
> >>
> >> 52970-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.500" shaft diameter
> >> 52971-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.531" shaft diameter
> >>
> >> Crane does not recommend the use of their gears on camshafts that have
> >> been
> >> previously run with other types or materials of gears. Comp did not
> >> recommend
> >> this gear on their -8 cores. Mike Trusty ran a Crane gear and had it
> >> fail in
> >> short order. Asa Jay currently runs Crane's gear on a Crane steel
> >> roller cam.
> >> I'm told but have not verified that Crane's earliest steel gears were
> >> made
> >> like the Ford gears but their new gears are different. It may be the
> >> case
> >> that Mike's gear was the early version and Asa Jay's the late? In any
> >> case,
> >> I've spoken with several people who are running the current Crane
> >> gears with
> >> no problems. Asa Jay was kind enough to remove his distributor and
> >> check the
> >> gear and reported it had a normal contact pattern and wear.
> >>
> >> 4. Mallory Distributor Gear
> >> Mallory makes a distributor gear for their distributors that are made
> >> specifically for "austempered ductile iron billets" and "proferal billet"
> >> cams. It is supposed to be compatible with the Comp Cams austempered
> >> iron
> >> cam cores. As I understand it, the gear is heat-treated for
> >> compatibility.
> >>
> >> 5. Bronze-Aluminum Distributor Gears
> >> Generally softer than iron. Compatible with most cam cores but wears
> >> rapidly. A bronze distributor gear is essentially sacrificial, wearing
> >> the distributor gear instead of the roller cam gear. Usually specified
> >> for solid roller cams. Note that hardness can vary from manufacturer to
> >> manufacturer. If running one of these gears, you may want to run an
> >> oil filter without a bypass so the filter catches the wear particles.
> >> On a 351C, consider using Purolator oil filter number L30119. It's a
> >> full size replacement for the FL-1A Ford/PH8A Fram filter. It has no
> >> bypass spring in the middle but it does have the rubber flapper for
> >> anti-drainback. The original application is for a 1978 Nissan 510, 2.0L
> >> 4 cyl engine (L20B) which had the bypass valve in the engine block.
> >> This filter cross-references to a Fram PH2850, a Motorcraft FL-181,
> >> and a Wix 51452. However, those filters have not been verified and may
> >> have a bypass. It appears after 1978, Nissan went to a half height
> >> filter. Purolator part number L22167 fits that application and does not
> >> have the bypass spring but does have the rubber flapper for
> >> anti-drainback.
> >> Race engines may want to run dual filters.
> >>
> >> 6. Comp Cams Carbon Ultra-Poly Composite Distributor Gear
> >> Also meant as a replacement for rapid wearing bronze gears, Comp has a
> >> composite material gear. These are currently only available for Windsor
> >> Fords and small and big block Chevys.
> >>
> >>> Any hope of a bazillion hp, tractor like torque, long lived valve
> >>> trains
> >>> and a date w/ a keno girl that can suck the chome off a trailer hitch?
> >>
> >> What a guy does with his weekends is his own concern :-)
> >>
> >> Dan Jones
> >> _______________________________________________
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>
> --
> Real life: Thomas Törnblom Email: Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE
> Snail mail: Banvallsvägen 14 Phone: +46 18 290 290
> S - 754 40 Uppsala, Sweden Cellular: +46 70 261 1372
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