[DeTomaso] New York Pantera

[mikeldrew at aol.com]

Ed wrote:

the pictures may be found at: 
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/edlebby/album?.dir=/2862r...actn,del%3as,1%
3af,0

>>>Okay, so I finally got to view these photos via a direct link.  He 
then asked:

-- It is a pre-L car, although it appears that the small chrome 
part-bumpers
have been painted to match the body color (is that factory or someone 
did that
later?) -

>>>It was done later.  Oddly the trim around the windows wasn't 
painted; normally people do this at the same time.

 the car is listed as a "1972 Pantera" - no other model number is given
- was there only one model for 1972 - would features in the pix confirm 
this is
indeed a 1972?

>>>It does indeed.  In fact there were three distinct 'flavors' of 
Panteras built in 1972 for the US market:

1)  1971-spec cars (flat decklid, flat bumpers, plus a lot of other 
details)
2)  1972-spec Pre-L (this car)
3)  1972 L-model (one-piece bumpers, Arriva tires, and a bunch of other 
stuff)

-- the car looks like it has definitely been driven given the carbon 
deposits
and grime in and around the exhaust

>>>Which is a good thing in my opinion.

-- the wheels appear to be original the tires do not - are these the 
original
wheels for a 1972 - or are they from an earlier/later model?

>>>Too difficult to tell for sure from the photos if they are all 
original.  There were multiple variations of the Campy wheel between 
1971-1974, and it's not unusual to find a car with mis-matched wheels, 
as Back In The Day nobody seemed to notice or care, and if a wheel was 
damaged, it would be replaced with (whatever).  Having said that, it 
appears to me that this car does have all four wheels matching, and 
original to this particular era.

-- the upper-body looks to be in pretty good shape - there does not 
appear to be
cowl rust - i cannot see any other obvious bubbling low in fenders or 
doors (but
no close ups) - clearly lots of rust elsewhere, we'll come on to that - 
what do
you think, my eye is not that expert - danger signs? waves? bubbles?

>>>Only a close-up inspection can tell for sure.  The critical area is 
the inner wheelhouses and chassis tubes inside the rear wheelhouses.  
There are no clear photos of this area, although #18 is the closest to 
revealing the truth.  You see where the lower control arms attach to 
the chassis?  Barely visible are a pair of vertical tubes, in between 
those mounts, which run up and out of sight into the wheelhouse.  Those 
suckers should have had drain holes added; if not, be especially 
vigilant as they always trap water and rust from the inside out.  I 
have seen cars that looked perfectly sound, but the only thing holding 
it together was the undercoating!  Definitely get up there with a 
hammer and screwdriver and attempt to pierce the tubes right near the 
bottom (even if they have drain holes).  They should be rock-solid.  If 
not, deduct about $1500 per side for repairs.

-- is the body correct for 72 - correct fender flares, etc.? or has it 
been
modified?

>>>It's perfectly correct and original.

-- can you tell if the glass is original (by the way - how much does
originality/numbers matching matter with these cars - from what i have
seen...not much...true?)

>>>You're right.  The glass should be dated.

-- grill and hood vents correct for a 72?

>>>The 'hibachi' vents were added.  This was an innovation originally 
dreamed up by Gary Hall, which the factory then started offering as 
standard equipment on the 1980s Panteras.  Many earlier cars have been 
retrofitted.  Subsequent experience has shown them to be marginally 
effective, if at all.

-- square side view mirrors correct for a 72?

>>>Mirrors were installed in the USA.  Cars apparently received one 
mirror (driver's side) at the docks, and a passenger mirror was a 
dealer-installed option (missing on this car)

-- assume that is a radio antenna coming up through the right fender - 
correct
and right for the car?

>>>Radios and antennas were all dealer-installed options.  The normal 
placement for the antenna was on the left (driver's side) front fender, 
but the right fender seems to make more sense.

-- paint seems to be pretty good - is this an original color for 72?

>>>Yes, and this is the original, proper paint scheme.  Many people 
have repainted Panteras and neglected to paint the small black strip at 
the bottom of the rear panel, as well as the lower valance in the 
front, and the rocker panels.  This paint is a 'trick' which visually 
lowers the car and makes it look longer, and those who have eliminated 
it have screwed up the aesthetics of the car.  That's not only my 
opinion; Tom Tjaarda (designer of the car, and the paint scheme) and I 
had a long discussion about it, and he explained the strategy in detail 
and confirmed my assertion.  What he literally said was that cars with 
this paint missing look like fat, overweight cats dragging their guts 
on the ground! :>)

-- interior looks pretty used - but not abused - thoughts? I do see the 
rip in
the driver side seat - after market OEM style covers available? what 
about the
mouse fur on top of the rockers - correct?

>>>I believe replacement seatcovers are available; also, many people 
have their stock seats recovered in leather, so the vendors probably 
have original, used covers that are still in much better condition.  
Alternately, you could buy used original seats, as many people have 
replaced them (the stock seats suck).

The 'mouse fur' you are referring to is the stock carpet, which is a 
silver-gray color.  This car has aftermarket black floormats on top.

-- have seen pictures where a lot of the buttons are behind the shifter 
on the
console (does that come later) is the guage cluster, buttons, console, 
etc. all
correct for 72

>>>Yes, all original.  Any wacky buttons behind the shifter have been 
owner-added.

-- obviously and aftermarket radio - big deal to find an original? 
repopped?

>>>Panteras were delivered without radios; dealers normally installed a 
"Becker" radio with a reverb unit.  I can't tell if this is what this 
car has.

-- could not see any cracks in the dash and guage area - actually looks 
pretty
clean - agree?

>>>Dash is actually a bit screwed up.  On the early cars, the material 
didn't stick to the dashboard particularly well.  Although it's not 
obvious, on this car the glue has given up and the material has shrunk 
and pulled away from the fiberglass dash underneath.  From about May 
1972 on, the cars had thin metal strips affixed with tiny screws to 
keep the upholstery material in place; this car predates that 
improvement and the dash obviously shows.  If you were a stickler, 
you'd pull the dashboard and reglue it, and/or find a later Pre-L 
dashboard with the metal strips and replace it.

-- shoulder belts seem to be missing (or are these not an option on a 
72)?

>>>You are correct--somebody has removed them.  The stock seatbelts 
were a convoluted, three-piece affair, requiring a fair degree of 
dexterity to operate.  The shoulder belt was a seperate item which 
hooked to the outboard lap belt.

Aftermarket seat belts are available, and I wouldn't drive the car 
without some form of shoulder belts.

-- in one picture looking through the drivers door there appears to be 
an
aluminum bar around where an emergency brake release handle would be on 
a foot
brake - any thoughts?

>>>That's the handle to open the front hood.  It's actually lifted 
directly from Alfa Romeo.

-- are the speakers on either side of the console in the foot wells 
stock?

>>>No.  Most cars got speakers in the doors when the dealer installed 
the radio.  The fact that this car has uncut door panels is a huge 
plus, as some people are willing to pay big bucks for that.  If you 
wanted quality sound in your car, it would be fairly easy to find 
somebody to swap with you, and he'd probably happily toss in the 
speakers for free.

> i am
guessing not - i note the broken kick panels on the inside of the foot 
well
(passenger side) both where the speaker is and on the outside where 
there
appears to be a fuse box - how big a deal - replacement parts available?

>>>The inner kick panel on the passenger side has been munched, but the 
fuse box cover is intact.  It has a cutout to give clearance between 
the top of the cover, and the glovebox lid.

Replacement kick panels are now available.

-- notice some brown spots on both seats right where the lap belt 
tensioners are
- what is this? holes that are showing the stuffing? rusting of a metal 
part
there?

>>>I think it might be surface rust on the frame of the seats.

-- is the steering wheel stock? if not, how a big a deal to find an oem 
style
one?

>>>The steering wheel is an aftermarket LeCarra wheel and hub.  The 
stock wheel was an absolute piece of junk, and many/most Panteras have 
aftermarket wheels.  Be aware that the LeCarra hub is sized 
incorrectly, and overtightening it can cause the lower plastic bushing 
in the steering column to shatter; when that happens, the wheel and 
steering shaft pop back towards the driver about 1/4 inch, until the 
U-joint at the bottom of the shaft strikes the tube in which the shaft 
is contained.  When you get into the car, you should only be able to 
push the wheel in and out about 1/16th of an inch, max.  Any more than 
that tells you the bushing is wiped out.

Dennis Quella (Pantera Performance Center) sells a replacement bushing 
made of oillite (oil-impregnated metal) which is only $16, fixes the 
problem forever, and is immortal.

If you really have your heart set on a stock wheel, you'll find that 
the rubber center section is almost invariably destroyed.  You can get 
a stock wheel for free anywhere (hell, I have three of them, don't ask 
me why), but you'll have to buy a new center pad, which cost $150 for 
many years, but I believe they are more expensive now.  Quality of the 
repop center pads is even worse than the originals (which is saying a 
lot) and reportedly they only last 5-6 years if the car sees any 
sunlight.

Personally I'd ditch the LeCarra wheel and get a proper Momo Prototipo, 
which was the OEM De Tomaso wheel on the European GTS and later 
GT5/GT5-S Panteras.

-- what is the white button/switch below the speedo in the dash - 
something
after market?

>>>No, that's the odometer tripmeter reset knob.  It's attached to a 
short cable that goes into the back of the speedo, which resets the 
tripmeter.

-- weather stripping around doors appears ok - but i note the surface 
rust
around the fasteners - problem?

>>>Where there's smoke there's fire.  So at least look carefully.

-- passenger side weather strippin above door latch seems to be 
birthing some
crud - thoughts?

>>>There is a pinch weld here, which the weatherstripping then is 
pinched to.  It's normally a bit grotty under there (i.e. not perfectly 
smooth metal), but painted.  It appears that the paint has chipped away 
and surface rust set in, but it's probably totally insignificant.  I'd 
just grind the rust away and brush-paint it, then cover it with the 
weatherstripping.

-- carpeting looks ok - agree?

>>>From what little we can see, yes.  Chances are the car has had 
floormats for quite some time, so the carpet underneath is probably 
like new.

-- inner door panel and trim behind seats looks ok - agree?

>>>Yes--as mentioned before, it's rare to find uncut door panels.

-- rear view mirror correct?


>>>Yes.

-- clearly there has been some after market work on the wiring - see a 
good
chunk of wires hanging in the passenger foot-well area - some of that 
must be
the radio - maybe some after market ignition stuff?

>>>Believe it or not, that's all original (at least what we can see).  
The early cars had a bunch of exposed wiring down there; the later cars 
had slightly reconfigured dashboards and fusebox covers and did a 
better job of hiding it.  It's true that there might be an aftermarket 
wire or two in that clump.

-- headliner fabric look ok - clearly some sags and some areas coming 
off the
roof - material still available? supporting rods up there?

>>>No rods, just material with foam glued to the metal inside of the 
roof.  Removing it is a nasty job as the foam has broken down and gets 
EVERYWHERE unless you scrape it with a shop vac (and even then you 
still get a bunch all over the place).  Replacement with OEM material 
is available from Pantera East.

-- courtesy lamp looks ok - no rust on base (that is visible) - plastic 
not
cracked - - agree?

>>>Yup.

-- the sun visors look a bit overstuffed - stock?

>>>That's the way they came.

-- windshield and rear window gaskets seem ok from what little you can 
see - -
agree?


>>>Yup;

-- hood compartment - looks terrible - the radiator has a great deal of 
surface
rust -

>>>That's not surface rust.  The radiator is leaking, pretty badly.  
Definitely needs to be replaced.  Actually, I'm rather fond of 
standard-style brass radiators as opposed to the trendy and expensive 
aluminum replacements, and I'd either seek a new brass one, or have the 
original radiator re-cored by a radiator shop.

acid leaking from battery -

>>>Yeah, that's not great.

appears to be rust under master cylinder (is
that plastic MC correct??) -

>>>Yes, that's a stock, original master cylinder, which may or may not 
still be functioning perfectly.  Replacement OEM master cylinders are 
available, but very expensive, and most people switch to a 
vendor-sourced replacement.  Some are Corvette-based, while others use 
an adapter and a very cheap and readily available Ford unit.

>will need to confirm if the spare has the correct
wheel -

>>>That's definitely an original spare--nothing else will fit in there! 
  BTW the spare properly belongs in the rear tub.  During crash-testing, 
the front hood popped open, the spare lifted up and crashed through the 
windshield, 'killing' the crash test dummy!  That's why Ford mounted 
the spares in the tub in the back of the car.  You can see the 
half-moon-shaped cutout in the right rear of the fiberglass trunk in 
Photo #13; the spare doesn't actually fit into this opening, but rather 
sits on top of it.  Some cars came with a metal tie-down there, others 
didn't.

> cowl area look clean - the wiring going to the right of the radiator
looks fairly new and kempt -

>>>When you say "new" wiring, you might as well be saying "total 
kluge".  While it's possible that somebody sympathetically re-wired the 
radiator fan circuit, it's equally possible that somebody hacked it up, 
so be prepared for both eventualities.

>some of the hood liner (carpet?) seems to be frayed
and separating from the floor of the hood space - thoughts on all of 
this? -
does this seem complete? parts correct? modifications?

>>>Seems totally original other than the aforementioned wiring.  I 
can't tell for sure if the radiator is original; normally it's stamped 
"FIM Bologna" right in the center on the top, but I can't see well 
enough from the photo.  Given its crappy condition however, I'd bet 
it's original.

-- trunk liner looks clean (almost new) - probably a replacement (are 
these
avialable)?

>>>Probably just recarpeted, or simply removed and never used by the 
previous owner.  The liner was originally held in place with Dzus 
fasteners (the earliest cars used allen bolts), but these fasteners are 
totally unnecessary and few cars still have any of them.  Many owners 
choose to remove the trunk and run around Commando-style.

-- does the engine look correct? cleaner? valve covers?

>>>Carburetor, air cleaner and intake manifold are all aftermarket 
replacements.  Valve covers are original style, in the right color.  
Cylinder heads are painted 1960s Ford Blue indicating that somebody has 
had this motor apart and horsed around with it, which is probably a 
good thing.

-- i note what appears to be bubbling and rust on the heads - thoughts?

>>>The rust is actually at the junction of the cylinder head and the 
engine block, which would right away point to a leaking head gasket.

-- wiring looks somewhat neat - no birds nests

>>>What wiring?  You can't see any!  The birds nests are probably 
well-hidden. :>)

-- appears to be an ac line (the one that is insulated - looks like 
newer
insulation, will have to see if ac works

>>>There are actually two A/C lines plus a wiring bundle routed through 
the right side of the engine bay, which is original.  Somebody has 
wrapped one of the A/C lines with a rubber sheath, but why?

-- the surface of the engine compartment almost looks as if it has been 
coated
with what people use as undercoating - is that correct? alternatively, 
it may be
fiberlass repair of earlier rust - hard to say - but the surfaces look 
bumpy and
overlapped - thoughts?

>>>That's completely standard and original.

-- struts for trunk lid - correct?

>>>It's rare to find original struts like these that are still 
functioning.  Don't be surprised if you find that they don't actually 
hold the decklid up by themselves.

-- radiator (if that is correct - the yellow one) - correct?

>>> you mean the A/C condensor with yellow fan.  Yes, that's there.

-- screen over the air cleaner looks as if has a cut out on the edge or 
is
melted - is this right?

>>>The owner failed to install a proper-height air cleaner base, so the 
engine stands about an inch taller than stock, and thus is bending the 
screen upwards.

-- exhaust manifold showing a good bit of surface rust - how worrisome?

>>>Don't worry about the rust.  The stock manifolds (like these) are 
junk, and are notorious for cracking and falling apart.  You can pull 
them, clean them up, have them all re-welded, and six months later they 
will be cracking somewhere else.  Bolt-in replacement headers are 
available which are of infinitely higher quality, and are quite 
inexpensive.  If there is even a hint of an exhaust leak, I'd pull 
these manifolds and throw them over the hedge.

-- engine block also showing spots or rust...?

>>>Evidence of water leaks probably.

-- transmission looks ok - the back piece looks newer than the rest - i 
know
this is critical piece and an expensive one if it fails - what do i 
need to look
for and check out?

>>>The back of the gearbox, and the side plates, are painted black 
while the rest is bare aluminum, which is why they look different from 
each other.  The only thing to look for is crunching when shifting 
gears, particularly from 1st to 2nd.  Ask if the ring gear bolts have 
been safety-wired, and if you can't get PROOF of the fact, assume it 
hasn't been done, and budget to have it done right away.  The stock 
ring gear bolts can come loose, start to back out, and then they hit 
some internal ribbing and snap off; the offending bits then get 
consumed by the gears and expensive mayhem can ensue.  Even though this 
is a well-known condition. people are still ignoring this at their 
peril--just last year in Las Vegas, an owner had a ring gear bolt end 
get propelled THROUGH the bottom of his gearbox case!!!

-- model tag is pretty blurred - I read "31_" then, inside the square 
"01613" -
on next line, i can only make out a section in the middle that seems to 
read
"WECC_ _"

>>>That's the engine number tag.  That would normally conform to the 
number stamped on the rear of the block just below the cylinder head, 
but given that this car has had engine work done, I wouldn't be 
surprised if the block is non-original--which nobody cares about.

-- tail lights seem ok and functional

>>>Yup.

-- filter at bottom of trunk seems clogged, but in good shape

>>>Huh?

-- do not see any rust on the lower edges of the rear quarters (trunk 
side) -
but do see surface rust here and there all over the underside - 
thoughts on how
bad this looks?

>>>Where there's smoke there's fire, when it comes to rust, and it 
bears careful inspection by somebody who knows what he's looking for 
and where to look.  That said, it's quite possible that this car is 
rock-solid with just insignificant surface rust.

-- exhaust and muffles show surface rust, but don't appear rotten

>>>Don't be surprised if the mufflers are blown out and rattling, 
especially the resonators inside the tips.

-- seems to be a leak in what I would call the rear differential - 
don't know
how bad - how much trouble could this spell - just a seal?

>>>yes--but replacing the seal is a gearbox-out job.

-- doesn't seem to be any leaking at rear seal, flywheel, clutch area - 
agree?

>>>Can't say for sure.

-- suspension correct? or modified?

>>>Seems to be original, complete with spring spacers which Ford had to 
install to raise the ride height up to make the DOT dorks happy 
regarding headlight height.  This spoiled the looks and the handling.  
Removing those spacers is a very simple matter, and I would urge 
everyone to do it since it's a free (or almost free) performance and 
aesthetic improvement, and returns the chassis to where it was 
originally designed to be.

-- appears to be some rust in the rockers (right one anyway) hard to 
say if this
is surface or something more evil - i would guess the latter - if so,
aftermarket or NOS panels available)?

>>>Yes, from different sources and of varying quality.  I have been 
quite impressed with the panels from Kirk Evans (Amerisport), while the 
Hall Pantera rocker panels were junk, perfectly designed to fit some 
other car but only marginally suited to the Pantera.  My car was fitted 
with replacement "factory" rocker panels from Italy, and they also 
needed a fair amount of work to fit properly.

-- seems to be a bit of a leak at the front of the oil pan

>>>yup.

-- the floor pan seems weird - it is scaly almost - maybe it has been 
patched
with fiberglass - or just laminated over - are replacement pans out 
there?
costly?


>>>That's simply undercoating; they look totally ordinary.  Replacement 
are available if needed, but I wouldn't expect to need to do so.


-- the only obviouis area of rot seems to be where the radiator meets 
the
frame/subframe - how bad does this look to all of you?

>>>It's very obviously a result of the leaking radiator.  Water 
collects on that panel and rusts it to shreds.  Absolutely perfect 
replacement exterior panels are available from Johnny Woods in the UK 
(he also sells to several of the Pantera vendors), but I would also 
count on having to replace the radiator support, which is also readily 
available.  Figure $1500 to do the job.

-- seems to be a leak inside of the left tire - would guess this is 
brake fluid
- agree?

>>>Sorry, I don't see what you're referring to?

>Thanks for your patience in reading through this - i think the car can 
be had
for the mid-20's does that seem right?

>>>That seems to be a fair price, assuming the car goes, turns and 
stops reasonably well.  I would definitely look at this car as a 
'project', and would budget another $5000 for immediate action before 
you planned on using the car.  Figure the brakes need to be overhauled, 
there may be head gasket issues, the radiator is shot, fans are an 
unknown quantity, etc. etc.

If you were really committed to doing it right, you could very well 
wake up and discover you'd spent $10,000 in a relatively short time, 
assuming you fixed the rust, etc.

 Let me know if you have further questions?

Mike