[DeTomaso] advice needed

[Daniel C Jones]

> He said that rollers are no good on a street cleveland engine.

The big heavy 351C-4V valves and 1.73:1 ratio rockers can make it a challenge
for a hydraulic roller cams to turn higher RPM.  However, it can be done
successfully.  The tolerances and construction of the OEM Ford lifter do
not allow it to work well at higher RPM unless the lobe rate is limited.
Lobes have been developed to specifically address this problem (e.g. AFM's
hi-rev lobes) since there are drag race classes that require OEM lifters.
Also there can be interference problems if trying to use the Ford spider
and dog bones arrangement but this varies from block-to-block.  A better
answer is the Crane link bar lifters.  The do not bind like the Ford
lifters and have tighter tolerances.  The downside is they are $400.  You
can also lighten the valves and retainers (titanium or Ferrea's hollow
stem stainless steel).  Beehive valve springs (with matching nickle sized
retainers) can also extend the RPM range.  Vizard has tested and reported
on all of this.  Mad Dog runs an off-the-shelf Comp hydraulic roller in
his race Pantera and told me recently he loves it and has no desire to go
back to solid flat tappets.

A lot of old school engine builders got turn off by hydraulic roller lifters
in the early years because of these limitations.  However, development
continued and all the problems with flat tappet lobes wiping out has caused
many to reconsider.  A friend of mine runs what is arguably the fastest
normally aspirated, fuel-injected hydraulic roller cam 5.0L-based Mustang in
the country.  With all the tricks, it turns over 9000 RPM through the traps.

> I've also been using a stainless steel Romac damper.  Again no good.

What did he suggest?  Did he not like the Romac's construction or was
recommending a Lancester or viscous type damper?

> Also I've been using an engine oil cooler which he said not to use as
> clevelands don't need it and it takes too much to pump up the oil into
> them.

They do represent a pressure drop that you must take into account and
the lines and cooler area need to be properly sized.  You probably don't
need one for a street application but they may help if you're doing
something like Silver State.  You oil temperature gauge should tell
you whether you need one or not.

> Also I've been using an extra oil line that goes from an oil gallery plug
> just above the oil filter back to where the sender is for extra oiling for
> the rear mains.  Again, Don't use.

They are controversial.  The people who like them say they have seen an
increase in pressure at the rear mains.  However, I know of a guy who ran
the external oil line on three drag racing engines, all of which had problems
with the #4 and/or #8 rod bearing (failed or spun).  After some reflection,
he decided the external oil line was taking half the oil supply and feeding
it directly to the number 5 main and driver's side lifters.  This tends to
starves the #4 main, which in turn starves the #4 and #8 rod.

Most of the street and drag racers I know simply run the Moroso oil
restrictor kit, in conjuncton with a large capaciy baffled pan and
perhaps a high pressure relief spring and/or high volume pump.  The
Moroso kit (p/n 2205) is cheap and easily installed, if the engine is
apart.  As to the kit's effectiveness, here's what Jack Roush has to
say:

 "Although much has been said about the supposedly poor oiling system in the
  351C, it is really quite adequate for high performance use.  Simply install
  the Moroso No. 2205 kit that restricts oil to the rear four cam bearings
  and the left lifter gallery.  That's all I do to our Pro Stock engines,
  and we've never seen any oiling problem."

Understand, Jack's Pro Stock engines ran 9500+ RPM.  Moroso only recommends
the kit for solid lifter engines but I know several people who run the
Moroso restrictors with hydraulic cams and they've reported no problems,
even when running fast bleed lifters (Rhoads).  If you're paranoid, you can
always open the lifter feed restrictor to a larger size.  Moroso's is 0.090,
Price Motorsport's is 0.110 and I know a guy who drilled his out to 0.125
(uses standard hydraulic lifters).  You don't want to put a restrictor in
the #1 cam bearing passage (the extra oil helps the cam gear).  Also, the
oil gallery plug just behind the distributor gear in a 351C can have a small
hole (.030) drilled in it so that is sprays a steady stream of oil on the
gears.  Resist the temptation to not install the lifter feed restrictor, it's
the most vital of the bunch.  Roller rockers are recommended with the
restrictors as they require less oil than the stock rockers (probably not a
problem but I've always run roller rockers so I can't say for sure).

Other's recommend oil restrictor pushrods.  I've not used them myself but
I believe John Taphorn had Jerry Pentelari make a set of oil restrictor
pushrods.  He was already using the oil restrictor kit but was still putting
oil to the top end (said he removed the valvecover and had someone start the
car and oil shot out of the rocker arm and hit the garage wall over 10 feet
away).  They first tried 0.040" plugs inserted into the pushrods but it made
little difference so they inserted a second plug on the other end of the
pushrod with an orifice measuring 0.020".  That size controlled the oil flow,
delivering a steady stream about 3" in length at idle.  John said it fixed
his blue smoke problem when decelerating but, during a subsequent inspection,
he found the 0.020" orifices had become plugged with RTV.  That sort of
problem is a big reason why I prefer something like Permatex to RTV.  If you
run the restrictors or restrictor pushrods, make sure your valve stem seals
are in good shape (not brittle) and be diligent about oil and filter
changes.  It's easy to clog the small holes with debris.

I read an article where Dyno Don Nicholson stated that he found the oil
restrictor pushrods to be ineffective on his drag race motors.  I believe
his opinion was it just changed the spot where the oil was bled off (to
the cam/lifter interface).  He prefered bushing the passenger side lifter
bores with bronze bushings (which have a small feed hole like the
restrictors).  This modification can be worth 20 to 30 psi (hot) at the
rear of the engine but requires the lifter bores be bored (on a mill)
and the sleeves press fit.  You can see the sleeves and tool I use to
drive them in at:

http://www.panteraplace.com/Pantera%20Pics/lifter%20bushing%20tool%201.jpg
http://www.panteraplace.com/Pantera%20Pics/lifter%20bushing%20tool%202.jpg

The original bore is used to locate and is simply bored oversize for the
press fit bronze sleeze.  Once the sleeves are in place, you hone them for
a fit similar to the original clearance.  You *don't* want a lifter siezing
in the bore.  The sleeves are available from Bruning, Dixie, and Bearings
Incorporated under p/n 1416-12.

What needs to be done to the oil system is really a funtion of the RPM you
plan to run and for how long but I think arguably the most important thing
you can do is to make sure the oil pick up is always supplied with oil.
None of the modifications will save you if the oil sloshes away from the
pick up and sucks air.  A 10 quart road race gated/baffled oil pan with
windage tray and scraper is highly recommended.  Also, it's a good idea to
install high strength low profile magnets in the pan (like are installed
in many transmission pans these days) and magnetic drain plugs, just in
case.  I do not recommend a high volume pump without increasing the oil pan
volume first.  If you must run a stock pan, at the very least add an extra
quart of oil.  Pay attention to drain back as well.  You can elongate and
smooth the drain holes and valley.  The old Boss 302 Trans Am motors even
ran drain lines from the valve covers to the pan.

> I have KB Hypereutectic pistons that he said "take them out right away" as
> they are known to break.

High silicon content hypereutectic pistons are more brittle than the usual
forged pistons.  They got a bad rap when the drag racers started blowing
the ring lands off with nitrous.  KB's instructions specifically tell you
to run a wider top ring gap if running nitrous but lots of people ignore
that.  There are plenty of people running the KB pistons with no problems
but the forged are likely more forgiving.  I've not checked price lately
but the price difference between the FM/TRW/Speed Pro forged pistons and
the Keith Black hypers wasn't all that large.

> I have a Moroso oil accumulator that he said don't use as it takes too much
> pressure to pump up.

How is that a problem?

> He does his own oil mod that he has developed over the years that makes all
> this unneccesary but he said it's his own secret development and would'nt
> tell me.

Find another engine builder.

> Also the Comp Cams that I have been trying to use (560 lift - FC 292H-10)
> do not agree with a cleveland engine whatsoever?!......

> I'm thrilled with my Comp Cam 282S, which has a 570 lift. It sure
> seems to agree with my Cleveland! I know of a couple of other people
> running the same cam and haven't heard of any problems. Can't help you
> with the rest, but I can give a first-hand testimony of my cam.

I recommended that for your specific engine Charlie since you are running
the Aussie 2V heads.  The larger ports and valves of a 4V-headed engine
would work a little beter if the lobe centers were narrowed to 108 versus
the 110.

Dan Jones