[DeTomaso] fuel injection

Fri Jul 21 00:35:31 EDT 2006

Hi all, just figured I would throw this in the equation. In the event of a 
nuclear blast an E.F.I. will be destroyed where a carb will keep on 
trucking.....obviously there are conditions that do apply here.... electro 
magnetic pulse kills computers..... just something to think about. we do 
have some crazy, sick you know whats in the world today
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "hoppe1" <hoppe1 at cox.net>
To: "Kirby Schrader" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>; "Ken Green" 
<kenn_green at yahoo.com>
Cc: "F. & D. Terry" <gt5s at bcpl.net>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 12:01 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] fuel injection


>I have the electromotive tec 3 system in my car. It was my third EFI 
>system. I have programed a lot myself and have spent $1300 of dyno time.
> If you are like me and enjoy tinkering with the car and want to know 
> everything you can about it and you want to be techno current you need to 
> be hands on to EFI.  If you only want a good running car let the vendor do 
> it. You will probably be money ahead.   If you are money conscious a carb 
> still does a great job. The more I learned about what EFI needed to do to 
> make the car run, the more I respected a carb for what it does.   Not sure 
> the EFI is worth the time and money for the average car.
> Rich
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kirby Schrader" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> To: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "F. & D. Terry" <gt5s at bcpl.net>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 7:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] fuel injection
>
>
>>
>> EFI seems almost like religion these days....  :-)
>>
>> I _did_ tune my EFI without a dyno. I used a Haltech F9A and Quella's  IR 
>> setup.
>> Ancient? I guess. Worked well once I got it tuned.
>>
>> I tuned it on the street, cruising on the highway and at the track.
>>
>> Yes, it took some time, but when driving back and forth to work 
>> everyday, it was easy to tweak it everyday in the normal course of 
>> driving. Cold start was a real pain since it had to be cold outside 
>> (winter) and you got one shot at it a day in reality since once  warmed 
>> up, you didn't need the cold start map. The 'accelerator pump'  was also 
>> a trial and error thing.
>>
>> Based on the 'take it to a dyno' advice I got from everyone, I did 
>> eventually. We couldn't get any more out of the engine than I already 
>> had mapped. Nice flat curves.
>>
>> Agreed. It would sure map quicker on a dyno as long as yourself or  the 
>> tuning people knew your system as indicated by Fred.
>>
>> I enjoyed learning about it myself since I had never dealt with EFI 
>> before.
>>
>> And I'll bet Roger Sharp's car still has the map I gave to his friend 
>> one step at a time over the phone one night.
>> :-)
>>
>> FWIW,
>>
>> Kirby
>>
>>
>> On 20 Jul 2006, at 19:13, Ken Green wrote:
>>
>>>       Based on Dan's recommendations, I bought the Dynomation  engine 
>>> modeling software last year.  In a conversation with the  Dynomation 
>>> folks, I asked if anyone was using a simulation to build  maps, and they 
>>> said they were currently working on that with FAST  (part of Comp Cams, 
>>> I think), and were having good results in at  least starting out a lot 
>>> closer.  If this is successful, hopefully  it will become common and 
>>> make DYI EFI systems easier to get up and  running.
>>>
>>>   Ken
>>>
>>> "F. & D. Terry" <gt5s at bcpl.net> wrote:
>>>   Dan,
>>>
>>> The equipment the shop I use is quite pricey still. Not knowing
>>> that much about what they have, the dollars seemed to make more of
>>> an impression than anything else.
>>>
>>> Yes, I tried tuning my DFI on the road using an O2 sensor and the
>>> calibration software but found it to somewhat hit and miss. The
>>> guys at Second Street Speed remember their pre-dyno days with a
>>> roll of their eyes. In under three hours they mapped my injection
>>> starting at a 10% loading on their chassis dyno and increased this
>>> to 40% while building a map from 1000 rpm to 6000 rpm. It was
>>> explained that anything after about a 40% loading translates as
>>> wheel spin on the road, so they went from 40% to full loading at
>>> WOT. I don't pretend to know much about injection mapping but I do
>>> see the merits of three hours of dyno work against trying the same
>>> on the road. Final adjustments are usually required for
>>> driveability. I guess mapping is possible while driving around the
>>> intestates but it seems unnecessary when dyno shops are so much
>>> faster and accurate. Most of the EFI owners I know usually end up
>>> on the dyno.
>>>
>>> Building a whole map from scratch is a lot more involved than
>>> changing some jets that are fairly close at the start. A jet
>>> defines the equivalent of an entire map but with an EFI, the
>>> entire map must be defined a cell at a time. There are enrichment
>>> parameters that mimic throttle pumps and a whole gamut of other
>>> parameters that modify the base fuel table but the initial map
>>> must be defined. I feel whole process is much easier using a
>>> chassis dyno.
>>>
>>> Fred T.
>>>
>>> Daniel C Jones wrote:
>>>>> The only way to accurately determine the proper mapping as well as
>>>>> set other parameters is to have the job done on a chassis dyno. It
>>>>> certainly is hard to beat a $3500 wide band O2 sensor in a skilled
>>>>> technicians' hands.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wide band O2's have come way down in price. There are several that
>>>> sell in the $300 to $400 range and there's a rather inexpensive
>>>> do-it-yourself WB02. I'm curious if you have attempted to tune an
>>>> EFI system with a wide band on the road? It sure makes tuning carbs
>>>> easy. I've not yet tuned an EFI system from scratch that way but
>>>> we've tweaked a car that had a decent baseline before it had a series
>>>> of changes.
>>>>
>>>>> I believe the system Quella sells is a rather dated Haltec EFI.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You might want to verify if he still uses the Haltech. I know of one
>>>> car that was recently at his shop that did not use a Haltech. Given
>>>> the exchange rates and Haltech pulling it's U.S. distributor may have
>>>> caused Dennis to switch ECU's.
>>>>
>>>>> The throttle bodies he uses are readily adaptable to any modern
>>>>> EFI such as Electromotive or Motec that have electronic ignitions
>>>>> and data logging incorporated in their capabilities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yup. Treat manifolding and controller as separate but related issues.
>>>>
>>>> Dan Jones
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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