NO MORE COOLING PROBLEMS - JUST ADD CAPACITY AND RE-DESIGN
Re:[DeTomaso] Stock fan output vs. Flex-a-lite
Mad Dog Antenucci
teampantera at yahoo.com
Mon Dec 4 15:41:34 EST 2006
Ken - thanks again for your generous support this last year to both me and the team.
Agree with your analysis on why the rad works...I don't understand iwhy it works anymore now then when you Dick and MikeT explained it to me 6 months ago but now I believe yous! ;-]
md
Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
John,
I think we've gone all over the place on what's the best radiator for a Pantera, single flow, double flow, triple flow, thick and thin, copper or aluminum. I think that at least, Dennis has demonstrated that a really big single flow aluminum radiator is a viable solution. The dwell time in the radiator is probably twice a stock size single flow radiator just because it's so big (6 inches thick!) and because it's so big and single flow, it minimizes the restriction to water flow through the radiator (not sure how big that effect is), but the thickness does restrict air flow some (maybe a non-issue?).
Independent from the radiator type and size, it looks like Dennis has shown the benefit to handling of venting nearly all the air flow through the hood, and this was without major mods to the nose of the car, I think mainly the new hood.
The radiator was suppose to have been $1000 retail and was technically a Super Speedway radiator, I had a number of conversations with the teck guy at Ron Davis about using these on a street / ORR car, and their concern was cooling at low speed because of the restriction to air flow caused by the thickness. Apparently, this is not a problem in Dennis's car. I don't know what the rest would cost. I think less than $1000 for a custom hood, then just some plumbing. Maybe a $3,000 turn-key solution if you have someone else do the work?
Ken
"John Bentley (jab)" <jab at cisco.com> wrote:
CrazyDaWg,
You've chosen the $15,000 solution. Nice! What about the rest of us?
JB
-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
On Behalf Of Mad Dog Antenucci
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 9:28 AM
To: Scott Couchman; mikeldrew at aol.com; JDeRyke at aol.com;
tborcich at msn.com; detomaso at realbig.com
Subject: NO MORE COOLING PROBLEMS - JUST ADD CAPACITY AND RE-DESIGN
Re:[DeTomaso] Stock fan output vs. Flex-a-lite
Scotty,
Beam me up...I don't think there is any intelligent thought on this
List anymore
I think this discussion is a a mutant point from outter space. You
slackers are making me sick with all this talk about stock fans vs
flex-a-lite. ;-]
Since D*ck Drenske re-plumbed my cooling system and added the Ron
Davis NASCAR radiator I don't have any cooling problems at ANY speed at
ANY time! Street or race.
I averaged 148 MPH and ran up to 177.6 MPH at the Silver State in
Sept. Fan didn't come on. Finish line temps 175f/water & 185f/oil. Think
oil temp popped up to 200F at WOT but no higher.......LarryK double
checked temps with thermal gun at finish line and water temp variance
was +/- 3-4 degrees more at heads and rad.
Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!
Where's my flamethrower....you guys are getting out of hand.
Mad Dawg Antenucci
Team Pantera Racing
"If it was easy you'd do it"
P.S. The Brazilian girls donated a Flex-a-lite fan to JB. We ducttaped
it to a pole and used it to stay cool
==============================================
Scott Couchman wrote:
FWIW.....I spent some time at SEMA talking with after-market radiator
and fan suppliers concerning overheating issues I have with my 5.0
Mustang when driving ORR at speeds above 125mph. There was a lot of
conflicting information/opinions, but one of the comments that made
sense to me was that pusher fans are pushing cool air, while sucker fans
are sucking warm air. Cool air is easier/more efficient to push than
warm air is to pull.
mikeldrew at aol.com wrote:
Jack wrote:
We've also found sucker-fans (behind the rad rather than pushers from
the front) to be much more efficient than
pushers, and another efficiency increase comes when suckers are
combined with a
full shroud that forces air flow through the entire rad core, not just
two spots
directly in front of or behind the fans.
>>>It's worth mentioning that this shroud has both advantages and
disadvantages. It improves the efficiency of the fans at lower speeds,
but can radically decrease the effectiveness of the radiator at higher
speeds, because it causes a restriction--the relatively small openings
prevent air from flowing through and out of the radiator at elevated
speeds.
Johnny Woods found this out when he installed the Flex-A-Lite unit on
his Pantera. He routinely drives around France at 150 mph, and he
found that at triple-digit speeds, his car would start to overheat, but
it ran fine below 100 mph, which is a classic symptom of an airflow
problem. He wound up cutting the shroud apart and making an elaborate
series of trap doors/flaps, which blow open when the pressure inside
the shroud is greater than that on the outside. At lower speeds, when
the fan is spinning, it is creating vacuum which sucks the trap doors
closed. In fact, he may have gotten the idea from me, as this is an
OEM arrangement used by VW on all their water-cooled cars, and I
described the mechanism in use on my Sciroccos to him when he asked me
about his problem.
If you aren't in the habit of cruising at 100+, then it's probably
never going to be an issue for you, and you can probably get away with,
and in fact be quite happy with the Flex-A-Lite suckers. Having said
that, the non-shrouded Spal fans that Wilkinson sells work extremely
well too, and flow enough air to render a shroud unnecessary. Take
your pick.
Installing a fan setup with the shroud in front of the radiator is the
stupidest thing I've ever heard of--yet Flex-A-Lite markets some of
their fans thusly.
Another point Jack made bears repeating--many fan manufacturers sell
their fans with a cheesy mounting kit that relies on custom zip-ties
that pass through the radiator core, to secure it to the radiator.
This is NOT a good idea, and more than one Pantera owner has found out
the hard way that road vibration etc. will cause the fans to move
around on the radiator, and the zip ties act like little saws, slowly
cutting the radiator apart until it leaks. IF you can find no better
way to secure it, get a small-diameter aluminum or brass tube,
carefully feed it through the fins, and then pass the zip ties through
the tube. That MIGHT prevent a leak--but in my view it's no substitute
for a proper mounting system, which utilizes brackets which are
brazed/welded/whatevered to the radiator frame itself, without actually
touching the fragile core. To me, that alone justifies the added
expense of buying a package from a Pantera vendor, rather than saving a
few bucks and ordering the ingredients from Summit etc.
Cheers!
Mike
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